I am finishing an enjoyable day in London. The morning was spent visiting my old neighbourhood. Everything has changed: the newsagents beneath my flat has turned into a cafe and the cans of rice pudding that I used to buy for eighteen pence had been reduced to twelve. How have the lowered the quality? In the afternoon I met a friend near Leicester Square. We were struggling through a mob of people when it, er, “dawned” on us that we had stumbled upon the Twilight premiere. Banners waved. Girls screamed. George Lamb was there. It was bleak.
Anyway, I write because I have a long wait before a long train journey and I might as well spend the time writing up impressions of the debate between Peter Hitchens and Tim Wilkinson. Hitchens is a writer who brings out the worst in liberals (myself included, at one time). His sentiments are conservative and are delivered with a force that tends to elicit defensiveness. This is, perhaps, in part due to his background in the vociferous British Left but it also the result of his conviction and this is admirable, not least it means that he is independent-minded. Whether it’s a cri-de-coeur over the Iraq invasion or just a defence of beauty over cold philistinism, even slight vaguest receptiveness from liberal and left-wing critics allows them to him departing from the imagined right-wing playbook and proving himself to be not a joyless curmudgeon or tiresome provocateur but a man who cares deeply about the good in life and in the lives of others.
Tim Wilkinson has no such fame but may and should be known to England’s savvy browsers as another independent-minded commentator with a knack for exposing those who are dogmatic or prone to groupthink. His measured trashing of Damian Thompson’s indirect attack on scepticism, Counterknowledge, is a fine example and there are plenty more at his weblog.
The debate, I am afraid, did not endear me to the medium. It is a competition of performances as much as of opinions. Hitchens is a master of it – joking, pleading and denouncing with exquisite timing and theatrical flair. Wilkinson had a nice line in dry humour but would, I think, have preferred a discussion to an argument. Prose, of course, can include similar rhetorical techniques but at least one has time and space to cut through them to the facts. (If, indeed, one is able.)
Hitchens began the event by asking those assembled to raise their hands if they thought that cannabis should be legalised; if they thought that it should retain its current status or if they shared his belief that it should be fought with tremendous vigour. I raised my hand with the first crowd yet by the time the final votes were cast I was among the “don’t knows”. The truth is that I never “knew”. If somebody placed a gun against my head and told me to choose between Hitchens’ and Wilkinson’s policies I’d be inclined to think the latter would be best. If someone established an immediate referendum on the subject, though, I don’t think that I would vote. I have vague prejudices but no clear opinions and the two should not, in retrospect, become confused.
I used to smoke weed on irregular occasions but stopped entirely; in part because there seemed to be evidence that it could lead to or at least worsen mental illness and in part because, in all honesty, I did not enjoy the stuff. It made me paranoid or lazy and these are two features I could do with showing less, not more. This is also why, quite apart from the health risks, I dislike friends smoking. Their brilliant minds become slower and sloppier once they are under the influence. On the desirability of minimised drug use, then, myself and Hitchens are agreed.
I am not familiar with the scientific research on the subject but as Hitchens wields the anecdotes of people who have suffered from the drug it doesn’t seem unfair to note that countless friends and acquaintances smoked or, indeed, still smoke weed as a small part of their lives and remain healthy people in careers and further education. One might not admire them for taking the risk, whatever its gravity, but they have still avoided its worst possibilities.
So what? Hitchens might respond. Such people could live without it. This is true, of course, but should his dreams of the harsh prosecution of a drug war come to pass it is also true that some of them would disregard rational self-interest and continue to smoke. They would face prosecutions in large numbers. Careers would be damaged; families split and miserable months endured. Hitchens implied that these would be few in number and compared the deterrent effect to that which reduced drunk driving. Yet, as Wilkinson responded, that had been a guilty habit that most people needed scant encouragement to stop. Cannabis, however, is perceived by its users – with justice, in many cases – as a personal indulgence of little practical harm. Plenty of them, I’d guess, would stubbornly continue, and far more would be resentful towards the state and the society that it controls in a manner that would harm the desired social cohesion.
For vulnerable people – the young especially but also the poor, the jobless and the traumatised – it is often a more serious matter. Wilkinson observed, however, that those most at risk of falling into a mire of drug abuse tend to face other problematic circumstances. Intoxicants, for them, are a crutch. Should these unfortunate souls be hounded over their drug use some of them would face arrest – hardly an upturn in their fortunes – and others would be liable to simply plump for booze instead, or, indeed, presuming that they risk arrest whatever choice they make, resort to harder drugs. This all sounds plausible to me. Wilkinson implied, with no desire to bring economics into what was already a heated discussion, that our focus should be on resolving the structural issues that underpin their malaise.
In advocating the legalisation of cannabis Wilkinson spoke of the dangers of forcing drug use underground, ensuring that the users aren’t inclined to seek advice before taking the stuff and averse to going help if they decide that they would like to stop.
These are factors I have borne in mind when I have thought that legalisation is desirable. Even if it was, of course, it would be under conditions. Its manufacture and sale would, you would hope, be regulated and one could not provide it to children and young teens. Hitchens referenced Big Pharma in warning of the dangers of cannabis becoming an asset of the corporations and he was right to. It is not unthinkable, however, for a government to bring a corporation into line. Tobacco is off the telly. Warnings blare out from its packets. Its users are confined to their homes or to the elements. Big Tobacco has, despite its power and influence, been neutured and if such a proud old institution could be brought to hell a young pup like the cannabis industry could be controlled.
Liberals would – and should regardless of the drug’s legality – be obliged to treat it with far more seriousness. One need have no shame in telling others how one thinks that they and society should exist. If this was inherently disreputable we would all be libertarians. The depiction of weed as a harmless joke is pretty much ubiquitous in our culture. I am a big fan of Spaced, for example, but the fact that had it been real the comic-scrawling pothead would have been far likelier to end up as a smelly quinquagenarian babbling about social security and Lois Lane instead of landing a dream job and a hot girlfriend could leave an apple sourz taste in the mouth. As for Afroman – well, I laughed but, then, neither I, Kevin Smith or Joseph Edgar Foreman actually ended up as a deadbeat. Art should not, of course, be reduced to morality tales but it matters. Perceptions of life can be adopted as truths and aspirations and artists should be mindful of that.
Before we trail off into fantasy land, however, it’s worth pausing to consider Hitchensian refutations to the arguments that underly it. He would doubtless agree, for example, that other social and economic factors must be faced in dealing with the vulnerable but these do not preclude some kind of drug war. As one hand removes, a theory might suggest, another offers. Few people deny that heroin use should be banned and its users prosecuted (if for rehabilitation) but none of us think that this alone would solve the troubles of council estates.
One must also ask if economic empowerment is always the solution to problematic lifestyle choices or, indeed, if it can achievable while they continue. Left-wing people can attribute social ills to economic factors in a reductionist manner. They are not constant companions. In the 1930s, for example, lots of blokes were poor and unemployed but few of them considered, as thousands have done these days, leaving their children. Drug use might be a symptom of a disease but it can alse exacerbate it. There is a limit to which young people, meanwhile, will pay heed to the warnings of adults. Lots of teenagers notably failed to talk to FRANK.
I have known a few people whose neuroses and illnesses seemed to be worsened by heavy drug use and Hitchens is eloquent in describing its apparent harms. Vocal advocates of legalisation can, I agree, be somewhat complacent in assessing the risks of the drug. Hitchens is, I suspect, also correct in presuming that a lot of them are users of it. Where I am sceptical, however, is when he concludes that they are selfish in their work. I don’t think such people merely hope to smooth their path to cannabis, because, if nothing else, it’s a fairly relaxed stroll already. What they can be, though, is privileged: the sort of older, intelligent and often middle-class people who can ensure that their intake is of small, controlled proportions. Young, hopeless and sometime traumatised or simply stupid users would find this much harder if, indeed, they thought to try and one should be extremely cautious of making that slide into degeneracy look more tempting.
I am, then, going to leave you with a lot of questions and no answers. It’s my hope that this trickle of consciousness provokes thought but I cannot furnish you with a sound conclusion as I do not have one myself. I shall take note of research if and when it appears and form a proper view. And continue to take the “anti” side in drug discussions. Because, ultimately, while they might relieve stress for a time they won’t secure that better job; that yearned for partner or the change you’d like to witness in the world. Well – unless you’re Afroman.
November 15, 2012 at 11:30 am
Why are you not familiar with the scientific research on a subject that you have chosen to express an opinion on?
In 1988, after reviewing all scientific evidence brought forth in a lengthy lawsuit against the government’s prohibition of medical marijuana, the DEA’s own administrative law judge (Judge Francis Young) wrote: “MARIJUANA, IN ITS NATURAL FORM, IS ONE OF THE SAFEST THERAPEUTICALLY ACTIVE SUBSTANCES KNOWN. IN STRICT MEDICAL TERMS, MARIJUANA IS SAFER THAN MANY FOODS WE COMMONLY CONSUME.” http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/show/109464
No person of any age, in all of recorded history, has ever died from marijuana, marijuana is nontoxic. Many have died from marijuana prohibition and tens of millions have been caged or otherwise seriously harmed. The US arrests someone on marijuana charge every 38 seconds. In 2010, 52.1% of the 1,638,846 total arrests for prohibition violations were for marijuana, making a calculated total of 853,839. Would you rather have your kid locked up with killers and child molesters or would you prefer to do your own proper parenting? http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Marijuana#Total
The World Health Organization Documents Failure of U.S. Drug Policies—according to the world’s leading substance abuse researchers, the US has the highest rates of marijuana and cocaine use. http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/90295/
Cannabis Reduces Infant Mortality: http://www.salem-news.com/articles/june272010/marijuana-infants-sc.php The “cannabis” infants have a mortality rate almost half of what the “No drugs” infants have!
Mothers who use cannabis during pregnancy have healthier smarter kids: http://patients4medicalmarijuana.wordpress.com/2009/12/20/marijuana-cannabis-use-in-pregnancy-dr-melanie-dreher/
Here’s a documentary about marijuana curing cancer. There are 7 parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjhT9282-Tw
If you still doubt that marijuana is good medicine then kindly check out Granny Storm Crow’s Amazing MMJ Reference List:
http://beyondchronic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Grannys-List-July-2012.pdf It’s more like a library than a list!
MARIJUANA CURES CANCER:
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/cannabis/healthprofessional/page4
http://www.nowpublic.com/thc_marijuana_helps_cure_cancer_says_harvard_study
http://patients4medicalmarijuana.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/marijuana-cures-cancer-us-government-has-known-since-1974/
http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/08/pbs-documentary-sheds-light-on-marijuanas-cancer-killing-properties/
Marijuana promotes brain cell growth by 40% and protects it from damage: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051016083817.htm
Marijuana promotes healthy lungs: http://dailycollegian.com/2012/02/01/marijuana-health-claims-go-up-in-smoke/
Marijuana when used by HIV patients Inhibits virus replication: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120320195252.htm
MARIJUANA HALVES MORTALITY RATE IN PEOPLE WITH SCHIZOPHRENIA AND RELATED DISORDERS:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22595870
Peer-Reviewed Studies on Marijuana
http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000884
November 15, 2012 at 12:32 pm
Firstly, apologies for the half-finished paragraph I’ve just added the ending to. I typed this all up at home and forgot to go back and make sense of it.
I wrote about it despite my relative ignorance because I went to the debate and think someone should write it up. Had I drawn sweeping conclusions this would have been foolish but, as you can see, I didn’t.
I am not, as I hope that I’ve made clear, denouncing cannabis as an unmitigated evil. For a lot of people it’s almost harmless in practical terms and for some, perhaps many, its medicinal use is beneficial. What I am trying to convey in this article is that before I could endorse legalisation I would want to guage (a) the scale of the risk of psychotic disorders and (b) how and if society could minimise the number of people who would be in a position to endure the worst consequences. These are not trivial considerations.
November 15, 2012 at 12:54 pm
“I am not familiar with the scientific research on the subject but as Hitchens wields the anecdotes of people who have suffered from the drug…”
And there it is. Science does not rely on anecdotes; Hitchens is guilty of confirmation bias. He wouldn’t understand scientific methodology if it bit him. The only way to determine what the status of marijuana should be is the scientific research, where the consensus is in favour of legalisation. All else is smoke and mirrors.
November 15, 2012 at 1:16 pm
It might support the case of those who argue for legalisation but it can’t be “in favour” of it. As I’m sure you know – forgive the implication of familiarity but seeing peoples’ comments around the ‘net can lead me to feel somewhat acquainted even if I am a stranger to them! – science is not normative.
Pedantry aside, it is of course true that our judgements regarding the value of different policies should, in this case, be informed by scientific research rather than anecdotes. (There is a blog I stumbled across that was devoted to condemning the evils of wheat rather than weed. Its author also had numerous accounts of its being uniquely toxic, addictive and so on.) It appears to me that the results of this can be disturbingly ambiguous but I should, as Malcolm says, further acquaint myself with it before issuing judgements.
November 15, 2012 at 1:33 pm
Thank you for this well thought out analysis of the argument. And might I add, good to see that you, as a self-confessed liberal, want to keep an open mind on this issue.
From the accusatory tone taken by the comment warrior who posted above me you can probably tell that open-mindedness is often sorely lacking in this discussion.
When serious opponents debate cannabis they can often find themselves in agreement over the facts. The contention then boils down to the conservative view that the individual morality of drug taking should be taken in to account and the liberal/libertarian view that stresses a more impersonal utilitarian approach to the problem. I was therefore happily surprised by your recognition of the fact that one should be wary of simply reducing social issues to economic ones. But allow me to be as bold to carry this reasoning one step further.
Just as economic explanations of drug misuse can not fully explain the total social problem, one could make the argument that social explanations will never fully explain the personal problem. This personal level is uncoincidently where morality comes in to play. Be careful though! This kind of thinking about personal responsibility was part of my own slippery slope from left libertarian in to full blown conservative.
As to your request for proper research I can probably do better then the vast cloud of pseudo-science (combined with the tragic wishful thinking of some cancer stricken people) on offer from my fellow commentator. The truth about research in to the effects and the function of cannibinoids (a name for the dozens of substances present in cannabis that mimic the human bodies own endocannabinoid system) is that it is an infant science. I refer you to the site of the International Association for Cannabinoid Medicine and it’s journal ( to be found here: http://www.cannabis-med.org/index.php?tpl=cannabinoidslist&id=6&lng=en) for a sample of the small body of proper research that is currently available. And please contrast this with the boastful claims by people like malcolmkyle and then answer truthfully as to which you find more reasonable. I promise that when you have done this you will have more understanding for Mr Hitchens accusations of selfishness amongst the promoters of recreational use.
November 15, 2012 at 1:38 pm
Hitchens may be a “master” of debating but he is full of lies and misinformation. And he knows he is lying – he will happily admit to lying in debates as he thinks his job is to stir up controversy not to tell the truth. Typical tabloid journalist.
November 15, 2012 at 1:41 pm
Just one huge question I’d like to pose here! When did you or your opinions become the governor of society?? No disrespect…but what if someones success isn’t measured by monetary gain?? What if a person has no interest on climbing the class-specific ladder?? Happiness isn’t measured out in the same jug for everyone. I feel it’s my inalienable right as a free man of my land to consume anything any everything that I wish to consume as long as that is not to the detriment of an other individual as long I can remain responsible and diplomatic in my approach….without causing anyone else any harm??
Is that really too much to ask??
The trouble is for most people….you’ll miss the irony when you sit among your circle of friends debating this subject at the swanky wine bar over a tipple of two wont you.
November 15, 2012 at 1:55 pm
It may be that some of the active ingredients of cannabis have some therapeutic effect, but it is also undeniable that some of the ingredients have severe effects upon the mental health and intelligence of the user. This would not be accepted in any legal medicine, so it is a very poor argument for legalisation. It may be a good argument for further refinement of cannabis-based medications so that the harmful ingredients can be removed.
November 15, 2012 at 2:36 pm
1. take ANY legal medicine from your chemist- 2. read the contraindictions then 3. come back and say that would not be allowed in legal medicine… i think you will find that the vast majority of legal medicines do exactly that
November 15, 2012 at 3:18 pm
*Examines medical cabinet*, minor contraindications found: Unusual taste, red eyes, darkening of the iris etc. Major: Heart palpitations (consult Dr if observed and discontinue use).
I take your point, but there is an obvious difference between the typical contraindications of a licensed and tested medicine and the known dangers of IQ damage and psychosis associated with Cannabis use.
November 18, 2012 at 5:58 pm
It is absolutely deniable that cannabis has “severe effects upon the mental health and intelligence of the user”.
There is no evidence of such effects at all.
All that the evidence shows is that tiny group of users MAY, if starting use in childhood, experience a medically insignificant reduction in IQ – although this is only correlation and no causative route can be shown.
As for mental health, again the only quantifiable risk is in those who start using as children and even then the risk is miniscule. According to Hickman et al, 2009 (a review of all published research so, by definition, not cherry picked), the risk of lifetime cannabis use correlating with a single diagnosis of psychosis is at worst 0.013% and probably less than 0.003%.
November 15, 2012 at 1:55 pm
J -
Considering that my friends are more liable to smoke weed than frequent wine bars this is a peculiar charge. As someone who wants to be a writer rather than a hedge fund manager I am also aware that success can’t be gauged in financial terms. I’m not sure I’ve said otherwise.
The very idea of natural rights is a contentious one and while I am not such a thinker as to be able to discuss the issue in substantive terms I know enough to be sceptical of it. Most of us agree that people should sometimes be protected for themselves. Prohibitions against crack, or all manner of intoxicants in the young, are examples of this. I am not arguing that cannabis is so harmful as to merit this treatment but it’s a legitimate argument to make.
Hugh -
I have never seen Hitchens admit to being dishonest and would be interested to see this charge substantiated.
Bram -
Thank you for the kind words. (I am not, it must be said, much of a liberal these days but nor am I much of anything.) Thank you also for the tip, which I shall make us of.
November 15, 2012 at 2:09 pm
Bensix – I was also there last night, I liked your write up of it for a couple of reasons; not because it’s rather flattering towards Mr Wilkinson, but because I am pleased you got a grasp of what he was trying to say and what his arguments were. Half of the time I was trying to understand or follow him – maybe it was me, however I thought some of what he said was incomprehensible, so thanks for pointing them out.
I got the impression it was a relatively new experience for him – without wanting to sound too condescending, critical or personal – I doubt I would have done any better! Maybe it was the crowd who for starters were predominantly for the motion.
Anyway, I enjoyed the debate and thought it was a great move on Mr Hitchens’ part to offer up the chance for a debate on the matter. Mr Wilkinson should be also congratulated for taking part.
Malcolmkyle – “Why are you not familiar with the scientific research on a subject that you have chosen to express an opinion on?”
Settle down, the debate was centred around the morality of cannabis use and the article as far as I can see covered quite well Bensix’ opinion on both the debate and the morality issue – regardless on what side you’re on.
November 15, 2012 at 2:14 pm
@Bensix
My apologies for the misidentification, my fault entirely for only half reading your introduction, eager as I was for the analysis of the debate.
@kimpatsu
‘The only way to determine what the status of marijuana should be is the scientific research, where the consensus is in favour of legalisation.’
This is blatant nonsense. There are only about twenty researchers worldwide who are fully dedicated to examining the workings of cannabis itself. None of them to my knowledge would claim that cannabis is safe for mass consumption. The thought alone that the scientific research in to cannabis has come so far as to make such a far reaching decision possible is simply ludicrous.
The bulk of the so called ‘science’ behind the public cannabis debate is in fact social science, often conducted by people interested in scoring some publicity. Most of the longitudinal studies, both good and bad, in to cannabis are exactly this.
November 18, 2012 at 5:51 pm
Rubbish. Cannabis and cannabinoids are undoubtedly the most studied natural compounds and despite much of the research being specifically targeted on proving harm (a very unscientific purpose), in 100 years no evidence of serious risk has been shown.
November 15, 2012 at 2:27 pm
Hi. Firstly well done for not forming an opinion until you have seen the research. I hope some of the above other users have supplied links will enlighten you on the subject.
I would like to tell you of my personal experience with drugs. My family has been ravaged by drugs. I had one uncle go mental and kill himself in jail after trying to set fire to his brother. The brother I speak of is 50 and can barely walk and is riddled with illness due to his prolonged use of a single drug. This drug is Alcohol. I myself don’t drink alcohol I find it turns me aggressive and loud. I do not enjoy hangovers and I have seen first hand the effect it has on the human brain.
What I am trying to get across is that when compared to the effects of alcohol, cannabis is not in my opinion in the same league.
I started smoking cannnabis while at school when I was 15. I wish now I hadn’t as the most recent research I have read said it has a negative effect on young minds but not on those over 18. Cannabis was everywhere in my school and I think the problem lies in it being illegal. This giant industry is going unregulated and unhindered. The only I.D a drug dealer needs is a ten pound note.
I understand some people such as yourself don’t like cannabis much like I don’t like alcohol. does that mean I think alcohol should be illegal. No I do not at it is up to each person what they want to do with there body and all it would do is send the alcohol trade underground much like cannabis is now. Giving money to gangs and criminals.
That is why in my opinion we need to legalize, tax, regulate and educate.
November 15, 2012 at 3:15 pm
Bram -
No worries. While I am not ideologically affiliated I retain a lot of fairly liberal inclinations.
Paul -
I’m glad you found it useful. Tim Wilkinson was new to it, as far as I’m aware, and perhaps a bit nervous, but I think his style conflicted with that of Hitchens and was unfamiliar to those more used to somewhat theatrical argumentation.
Mr. Boylan -
Thank you for your civil explication of your views. I am not blind not the dangers of alcohol at all and sympathise with you for your experiences.
The harmful consequences of illegal drug trading, seen not merely on British streets but on a dreadful scale in places like Mexico, should indeed be considered as we form our opinion.
November 15, 2012 at 3:17 pm
It’s not government that has bought Tobacco to heal, it’s Big Pharm that has lobbied government to bring Tobacco to heal. Why? Because Big Pharma sell nicotine patches, etc.
November 15, 2012 at 3:29 pm
It’s the coffee that makes you paranoid. That’s what they told me to tell you, the voices.
November 15, 2012 at 3:47 pm
Sadbutmadlad –
Really? I’m aware that Big Pharma has been lobbying hard to discredit e-ciggies but where is the evidence for their being behind the legal stuff?
Dick -
Oh, I don’t hear voices.
They’re whispering too quietly.
November 15, 2012 at 3:59 pm
Mr Robertson says that I ‘know that I am lying’ and that will ‘happily admit to lying in debates’. What is his evidence for this accusation?
November 18, 2012 at 2:56 pm
As I already said its one persons word against yours. I told the blogger to delete the comment if he wanted to – why he hasnt done so I dont know – you should ask him again if you want it removed
November 15, 2012 at 4:41 pm
Welcome, Mr Hitchens. Thank you for your part in the debate.
I’d like to emphasise, for people discussing this elsewhere, that my reasons for disliking cannabis use regardless of its graver health consequences are not reasons on which I’d consider banning it. There are many things I’d like to minimise in society without rendering them verboten. I’d advise friends not to get raging drunk, eat a pound cake for breakfast or watch Adam Sandler movies but I would not prohibits them. The two arguments are at least somewhat distinct.
As for the person on the Cannabis Law Reform Facebook page who asks why somebody would write so much only to remain on the fence – well, if he’s willing to give me a better way to spend one’s time waiting for and travelling on the last train…
November 15, 2012 at 11:31 pm
To add to this debate, information wise, Bedrocan produce a very good patient information leaflet on their product. http://www.bedrocan.nl/english/home.html
The risks just don’t justify punishment. According to all the available scientific evidence Cannabis is clearly far far less harmful than the perfectly legal alcohol, which millions enjoy. Whatever Mr Hitchens says there is simply no justification in punishing its use. The only deaths caused by cannabis are as a result of countries murdering people for trading it, either through the death penalty or bullets from the DEA – it’s utterly shameful and disgraceful, and a giant stain on the credibility of anyone who advocates stepping up the war on drugs. Its a failure on every level.
The USA have waged a vicious war on drugs internationally and domestically, especially on cannabis, the rates of use have increased alongside the numbers in prison! Prohibition just doesn’t work, it just creates a pyramid of criminals.. Quite how Mr Hitchens can claim there has been no war on drugs when we have the scandal of the 10,000s of deaths in Mexico is beyond me. Maybe instead of focusing on anectdototal claptrap predominately from life failures looking for an excuse, he should pop to Mexico to see the real impact of our stupid international drug laws, he could stop off in Colorado to see there is another way.
The US are now stuck in a tricky spot, having 2 major states seemingly contravening the UN narcotics treaties they forced the world to sign.
November 16, 2012 at 6:46 am
I think the parallel with alcohol is a good one – also plain tobacco. There seems to be an inconsistent approach to drugs which are embedded in our culture and ones which have an aura of transgression. Having said that – this is not something about which I feel terribly strongly, or decidedly.
November 16, 2012 at 10:14 am
I notice that Mr Robertson has not yet replied to my request that he provides evidence for his allegation that I lie, and admit I lie about this subject. Can our host perhaps urge him to respond? I intend to pursue this matter until it is resolved. Accusations of deliberate lying are seriously defamatory.
November 16, 2012 at 10:48 am
I completely agree with ‘thewisemaster’, “the risks don’t justify the punishment”. Walking around my local town the other night i saw teenagers falling about drunk, one of which came very close to being hit by a car. Now if they were stopped by the police and found to have a can of alcohol in their possession they would be sent on their way, but the person with slightly glazed eyes, giggling with their friends and strolling down the street was stopped and found to have a bag of weed on them they would be handcuffed, taken to a cell and have a mark put upon their record. Honestly think about it! How can this be the case?
I know a lot of people who have been put inredibly dangerous situations, some with pretty horrible outcomes, as a result of being under the influence of alcohol.
Now, i don’t smoke weed regularly but i have many friends who do on a daily basis yet they still manage to work full time and have girlfriends so i think your view that smoking weed, a career and getting a girlfriend can’t go hand in hand is wrong. Just like you wouldn’t drink a pint before going to work they wouldn’t smoke a joint, however at the end of the day some people might decide to relax with a joint as apposed to a glass of wine.
I think cannabis needs to be approached with an unibiased view, the fact that it is (wrongfully) illegal already makes the majority of sheep think that it must be a terrible, life destroying ‘drug’ with no evidence to support this viewpoint.
November 16, 2012 at 12:07 pm
I have emailed Mr. Roberton and asked him to substantiate or withdraw his claims.
November 16, 2012 at 1:53 pm
The word of a lying tabloid journalist against a colleague of mine.
Remove the last comment if you feel scared by his bullying. The following I will happily prove:
Hitchens may be a “master” of debating but he is full of lies and misinformation. Typical tabloid journalist.
November 16, 2012 at 2:11 pm
You have not, Mr. Robertson, provided evidence of Hitchens being deceitful. I suspect that you don’t have it. I will delete those comments if he likes; not because of “bullying” but as they are defamatory fact claims rather than opinions. How he responds, though, is up to him.
November 16, 2012 at 5:10 pm
To substantiate my earlier claim that the legalization lobby is fundamentally (though maybe not consciously) selfish I offer you this comment by the person calling himself thewisemaster:
‘To add to this debate, information wise, Bedrocan produce a very good patient information leaflet on their product.’
Take note of the word patient. This perhaps unconscious linking of the cases for medical cannabis and recreational use has dramatically slowed the progress of the former and is in fact selfish and gravely immoral. Furthermore, I highly doubt that the people at Bedrocan or GW or any other serious purveyor of medical cannabis would suggest that their product it is safe for mass consumption.
November 17, 2012 at 11:20 am
I’m grateful to our host for taking up the matter of Mr Robertson’s allegation against me, of deliberate and conscious lying. I think Mr Robertson has shown that he is aware of my challenge, and that he cannot substantiate this very serious defamatory accusation. I must now ask him to withdraw it and apologise unreservedly for the slur. If he does so promptly, I will consider the matter closed. It is not ‘bullying’ to seek to protect one’s reputation against damaging slurs, but normal behaviour. I have given him the chance to prove his allegation, and behaved with restraint and fairness.
I’m sure Mr Robertson would defend himself if faced with such claims against him, and he would be right to do so.
November 18, 2012 at 4:04 pm
Mr. Robertson has asked me to delete his comments. I believe it is rightly Mr. Hitchens’ decision.
November 18, 2012 at 5:39 pm
Peter Hitchens, whom I know personally and whom I am debating with again at the University of Exeter on 29th November is not a liar – although I do profoundly disagree with him!
In my opinion, his strongest argument is the moral one. Arguments about the harms of cannabis are easily defeated in a public health context although clearly there are individual tragedies. There are far more individual tragedies from peanut allergy or hang gliding though and we do not spend £500 million each year on a futile attempt to stamp them out, nor create a £6 billion criminal market with all its associated harms as a result.
Hugh Robertson is part of a very small group of cannabis campaigners who use personal abuse and harassment as their methods. As the leader of the largest drug reform group Britain has ever seen, I know this to my personal cost. I also know that people like him are best ignored. Courtesy and respect for each other is a much better way.
For adults, the risk of mental health problems arising as a result of using cannabis are infinitesimally small. I have set out the evidence below. In fact, whatever propaganda you may have read, all the experts agree on the evidence.
What is undoubtedly true is that we must protect children from early use of cannabis and the best way to do that is to remove the market from the control of criminals.
The scientific evidence about cannabis and mental health is:
1. Hickman et al, 2009. A review of all published research so, by definition, not cherry picked. It shows that the risk of lifetime cannabis use correlating with a single diagnosis of psychosis is at worst 0.013% and probably less than 0.003%.
2. Hospital Episode Statistics. Count of finished admission episodes (FAE) with a primary diagnosis of mental and behavioural disorders due to use of cannabinoids (ICD10 code F12) and alcohol (ICD10 code F10)
Cannabinoids (F12)
2009-10 713
2010-11 799
Alcohol (F10)
2009-10 47,402
2010-11 47,287
Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health and social care.
There are three million regular users of cannabis (Atha et al 2011) and 31 million regular users of alcohol (NHS Information Centre 2009). Therefore alcohol use is six times more likely to result in admission for mental and behavioural disorders.
3. Frisher et al 2009. The ACMD commissioned a study by Keele University into the trends in schizophrenia specifically to test the claims in the media of a link between it and cannabis. It looked at almost 600,000 patients and concluded that “..the incidence and prevalence of schizophrenia and psychoses were either stable or declining” despite alleged increased use of allegedly more potent cannabis.
My last debate with Peter H at the University of Salford in October 2011 can be seen here: http://youtu.be/VrtKKCntSA8
November 18, 2012 at 6:14 pm
Peter Reynolds -
Thank you for your informative comment. I really appreciate it.
The moral argument against taking cannabis is intriguing if, it seems, to me no argument in favour of its criminalisation. My interest is in establishing the risks of the drugs and the means by which those most vulnerable to incurring their harms could be protected from them.